Under Attack: The Evolution of Ancestral Nutrition – Nora Gedgaudas – #594

Under Attack: The Evolution of Ancestral Nutrition – Nora Gedgaudas – #594

September 13, 2019 9 By Ewald Bahringer


(techno music) – [Woman] Bullet Proof Radio. A station of high performance. – [Asprey] You’re listening to Bullet Proof Radio with Dave Asprey. Today’s cool fact of the day is that chemical exposure early in life can actually change your
health problems later in life. It’s well known that BPA, or bisphenol A, a chemical that is common in plastics is tied to a whole bunch of bad stuff from diabetes, heart disease, and now we found out how
early that can start. Researchers at Baylor College
of Medicine in Houston exposed mouse pups, I don’t
know why they call them pups, mouselets to the chemical BPA for only five days after birth, which is the time at which
their livers develop. As long as the BPA exposed
mice ate mouse chow for the rest of their
lives, they were healthy, but if they switched the BPA exposed mice over to a high fat diet as adults, those mice got larger
livers, higher cholesterol, and more metabolic problems than mice who ate a high fat diet that
weren’t exposed to BPA as pups. I just like to point out here
that a high fat mouse diet is not high healthy
fat or un-inflamed fat. It’s actually a high crappy fat diet, which is a problem in labs. I’d also like to point
out that all mouse studies are suspect because the big variable that no one controls for is that when women feed mice,
they behave differently, and they have different study outcomes than when men feed them. Oops. No one forgot when they say
we control for all variables, that one they missed. This is kind of interesting, because we’re learning
more and more everyday about what plasticizers do to you. Bottom line is: they suck, but for babies, they’re even worse, so splurge on the glass
baby bottles already. Today’s guest was on episode
136 of Bullet Proof Radio. That’s almost 500 episodes ago, which is kind of mind-boggling
in and of itself, and one of my favorite
evolutionary biologists. Her name is Nora Gedgaudas. – [Gedgaudas] Close enough, close enough. – [Asprey] Nora, I’ve never
said your name properly. You say it one more time. – [Gedgaudas] Ged-gow-dus. – [Asprey] Ged-gow-dus,
man, that is tough. Normally people just
call me Dave ass-spray, and I got over that in seventh grade, but I can see you’re still struggling with that name.
– [Gedgaudas] I’ve heard every possible permutation
of pronunciation of my name that you can imagine. – [Asprey] Well, my apologizes. – [Gedgaudas] You’ve done
better than average, actually. – [Asprey] I’ve read your books. (laughs) If that counts. I have to say early on,
before we get into your bio, my wife Doctor Lana,
Caroline’s good trained doctor, co-author of the Better Baby book with me, about what we can do
before and during pregnancy to have healthier kids with genetics, she’s like, “Dave, you’re talking to Nora? She’s my favorite author in the field!” So she’s a huge fan and just asked that I call that out. So, there you go, Lana, I did it. You can check that one off honey-boo list.
– [Gedgaudas] Thank you, Lana. Your check’s in the mail. (laughs) – [Asprey] Nora’s pretty well known in certain circles, in biohacking, paleo, things like that, as an
early adopter of a low carb, high fat diet, and she looks
at evolutionary physiology, biochemistry, metabolism, nutrition, and on top of that, she’s
a neuro feedback specialist with 20 years of experience,
certified gluten practitioner, and works out of Portland, Oregon. I heard the city official flower of the city of Portland is, what is it?
– [Gedgaudas] Well, no, the state flower of Oregon is mildew. – [Asprey] Is mildew, excellent. We were talking about how
to fight environmental mold. That’s one of the evolutionary pressures, which is pretty cool. This time, instead of
talking about neuro feedback and psychedelics, and
paleo all at the same time, which was our last interview, we’re going to talk about a new thing that Nora’s been working
on called primalgenic. – [Gedgaudas] Yes, so
one of the first things I want to comment on is that I wasn’t just one of the early
adopters of a fat-based, basically ketogenic approach
to ancestral nutrition. I was the first one to
write about that in genre, many, many years ago. I think my first book came out in 2009, a self-published version of it. – [Asprey] Primal Body, Primal Mind? – [Gedgaudas] Yeah, and
then I got approached by the current publisher, and they just said we love this book. We’d like to do it up right, and it was their number
one book for many years until fairly recently.
– [Asprey] Nora, as a professional New York
Times author kind of guy in one of my different hats, it is damned difficult to
get a self-published book over to real publishers. It’s almost unheard of.
– [Gedgaudas] It is, it is. – [Asprey] The fact that you did that is incredibly difficult, so hats off. – [Gedgaudas] I had really no intention. I just thought, you
know, I have this stuff. I gotta put it on paper. I want to put it in a published form so I can feel good about it
and hand it out to people. I figured, okay, this will
be a nice supplemental source bin-oh, extra cash, or whatever. I had no idea it was
going to do what it did. It just took off, and next thing I know, I’m being asked to speak at
UCLA and travel to Australia. It’s been a crazy, crazy ride. – [Asprey] It makes me
feel good when the people who are originators of a concept get a chance to go out and spread it before it gets, you know,
sort of borrowed and diluted. It’s funny, because your
idea behind primalgenic is around the co-opting
of paleo and ketogenic. We’re recording this live at Paleo FX. My topic was all about why
keto as you know it is dead. Here’s what’s happened when people who don’t understand it say, oh, let me make a keto product. – [Gedgaudas] Exactly. This is the problem. When I started out talking about this in the ancestor health sphere, it was like I was a
voice in the wilderness, and nobody wanted to hear it, because we know we’ve got
the 20 something paleo crowd who love their num-nums and yam-yams, and it was just very
hard to convince anybody that going low carb was a good idea. There were a number of
controversial things that cropped up that created
a big, vicious back and forth. I didn’t participate in that, but it was crazy. – [Asprey] You’re a neuro
feedback practitioner, which means you understand
more about psychology and the workings of the human mind, the unconscious working
in the average person writing about butter.
– [Gedgaudas] Right. I’ve spent more than 20
years in the trenches working with real, suffering people with real problems coming to me for help. One of the things I learned, and neuro feedback, as you know, and we’re also connected with the Othmers, who are my family. Siegfried and Sue are more family to me than my own family in some ways. It’s an incredibly powerful modality. I could be doing the most perfect protocol in the world for someone. It’s not going to put a
nutrient there that’s not there. It’s not going to take away some interfering substance
that doesn’t belong. The brain and the body
need certain raw materials in order to function. What I found is that all too often I was running into, you
know, working with people, and I could see that whatever
it was they were doing with their diets was absolutely, you know affecting all of this. And so, I found that when I applied what I know about the
nutritional side of things, if people were open to that, the results were much faster,
they were more powerful, and they were more enduring for people. – [Asprey] It’s the same sort of thing at the neuro feedback
facility that I started. Very, very different than just out-style you do, and perfectly compatible. So, I’m just saying not
competitive in any way. Five days, 10 hours a day, but
if I don’t feed people right, we have to bring in an executive chef, because they can’t do the
work if they’re not fed right. – [Gedgaudas] The brain
doesn’t have the fuel that it needs to do the work, forget it. It’s like a waste of time. – [Asprey] Here’s where
I was going with that, the question about being
a neuro feedback person. I’m starting to see some
disturbing similarities between what I’m going
to call the keto-bros, the dude, my ketones
are higher than yours. If you ever eat a carb again, you’re a bad a man! Some really, just, vile
personal attack stuff out there. And they’re starting to sound an awful lot like another crowd. One, I used to be a
raw vegan and all that, but there might be some angry vegans, stereotypically speaking.
– [Gedgaudas] One or two. – [Asprey] I’ve just heard about, never seen one online or anything. (laughs) So why is it there’s just these incredible warfare things online, both
radical and in the spectrum? Like, if you eat a carb
again, you’re a bad person. If you eat a drop of
fat, you’re gonna die. Where’s the anger and
the bile coming from? – [Gedgaudas] Well, the
anger and the, well. – [Asprey] Well, the bile’s
not coming from vegan. – [Gedgaudas] No, it’s not. Well, without being overly disparaging, I can tell you from my more
than 20 years of experience of working with the
brain and nervous system, and by the way, Portland is
number two in the country in terms of being a vegan center, right? By far, the most damage
in tractable brains and nervous systems I
have ever worked with have been hardcore vegetarians,
and especially vegans. We’re talking about extremely
agitated nervous systems. Once things get past a certain point, we can store maybe 5 years worth of B 12, you deplete that, some of
the neurological damage that occurs past a certain point is not necessarily reversible. By the time a lot of
these people came to me, they were willing to do anything, but it’s really really
hard past a certain point to bring somebody back out of
neurodegenerative processes. I mean, I think that’s part of it. There is, you know, sympathetic over-arousal. I know you know this language, is just epidemic in that population. It’s epidemic anyway, but in that population which you have are brains and nervous systems
that are just on overdrive. They’re inflamed. I mean, you know, a
vegan diet of necessity is a very high carbohydrate
and very high antigenic diet, so they’re consuming a lot of substances, and grains, and legumes,
and whatever else, a lot of lectins, things like
gluten, and whatever else, that are going to just wreak havoc. – [Asprey] They’re irritants. In my experience as a very well educated, it was raw vegan, eventually
I became raw omnivore, which helped a lot, but I did develop more autoimmune conditions
than I had before. I had all these different problems, but the agitation is energizing. You feel good if you’re asleep before. – [Gedgaudas] Well, you think you. – [Asprey] You feel good for awhile.
– [Gedgaudas] People need to distinguish between
energy and nerves, right? It’s like the difference
between, you know, waking up and your brain has energy, and you feel like you can just
go out and get things done. No offense, but drinking
10 cups of coffee, whether it’s Bullet Proof or not, your nervous system is
going to be rattled. You’re going to think you have energy, but it’s not really energy. – [Asprey] It’s pretty much
cortisol and agitation, and sympathetic tone.
– [Gedgaudas] Right. You know, if you feel
like you’re not worth a damn without that morning coffee, I challenge people to look at that a little bit more closely. I’m not opposed to coffee
at all, necessarily. – [Asprey] I was just
going to ask you to leave. – [Gedgaudas] I see the
bouncer coming my way. It’s okay, call him off. Call him off. – [Asprey] I’ve had
anti-coffee people on the show. They had a hard time speaking
in complete sentences, but they were on the show. Just kidding. – [Gedgaudas] I’m actually
more of a tea totaler, but I’m not anti-coffee. It depends on who you
are, all these things are. – [Asprey] It’s up in genetic and also, if you need it to survive you probably have an issue.
– [Gedgaudas] That’s probably a problem, yeah. – [Asprey] Totally with you there. So why do you say that paleo and keto are going to be co-opted? In fact, you’ve been
saying it for a long time. What does that mean? – [Gedgaudas] Well, you know, again, for years I felt as
though I was struggling to fit myself like a square
peg into a round hole when it comes to the whole paleo genre, trying to distinguish what my message is as opposed to kind of a lot of what else is out there. What’s happened with those two fields, it happens really with
everything sooner or later. It becomes co-opted by industry, right? It becomes popular enough,
industry sees an opportunity, looks for all kinds of
ways of marketing stuff, and next thing you know
you’ve gone from real food to cookies and cream keto bars and paleo friendly brownie mix. There is a lot that is catering to what people want to hear as opposed to what they really need to know. I’m very purist. I’m very foundational and very functional and very interested in taking
a health optimization approach and multinational corporate interests don’t stand to make a penny for me. It becomes a conflicted kind of a thing. When something becomes
really, really popular, all kinds of stuff happens. You have also people
entering into the field that don’t necessarily know very much. – [Asprey] It’s a big problem. – [Gedgaudas] They cut and
paste from other people’s work and pretend to be an expert, and maybe they have good
marketing expertise behind them, and they can make themselves look good, and they can sell a bunch of stuff, and it muddies the waters. Pretty soon, people are
hearing this from this person, this from that person. It all becomes confusing, and eventually it all
gets relegated to a fad and disappears in the midst of history as just, oh, it was
that fad that happened. You know, I desperately
don’t want that to happen. I created, you know, I
trademarked the term primalgenic to help divest myself from these now kind of commercialized
versions of paleo and keto that I am really not
comfortable aligning myself with because there’s just too much confusion and too much misinformation
and disinformation, whatever, and I don’t want to
be conflated with all that. – [Asprey] One of the
things that disturbed me the most is a keto cookie, and okay, I make some pretty damn
good apple pie collagen bars with something like six
grams of carbs in them, and it’s been collagen from
grass fed and everything. I like eating those, and I
don’t have a problem with that, and yet I do have some monk fruit, Stevia, whatever we’re using in that specific one, which some people say you
should have no taste for sugar. There’s that, but I feel confident when I give those to my kids, right? Some people would say those aren’t good, but there’s a keto cookie out there made out of wheat gluten as the primary protein in it!
– [Gedgaudas] Oh my God. – [Asprey] It’s like, come on! If you label that keto and somebody eats five of those a day, and they say I didn’t get
any results from a keto diet, you’ve maligned an entire industry because you made a product
that had higher margins but was actually bad for people. – [Gedgaudas] There’s more
of this happening now, and there is woodwork
for it to ooze out of. You know, I’ve kind of
had it up to my gills. I’m continuing with my message, and it’s not motivated
by marketing interests. My intention is to do the right thing in the right way for the right reasons, you know, come hell or high water, and it may not be what
people want to hear, but it’s going to be the
truth as I have discovered it, and as I’m seeking to communicate it. It’s not necessarily so
important for me to be right as it is important for me to be accurate. When I’m going through
and I’m researching stuff, whatever, if I make a
statement about something, I mean I’ve become worse over time. I’m more and more anal, it seems like, every day about stuff. I research the crap out of anything that comes out of my mouth now. I’m just really, really
careful about being accurate as best I can be, you know? The common phraseology now
in the mainstream media, the science is so. Settled science is an oxymoron. Science isn’t the last word. It’s the latest word. – [Asprey] It won’t be settled, ever. That’s why it’s science.
– [Gedgaudas] Not ever! By very definition, it shouldn’t be, but I’m doing the best that I can with the information that I have, and I can say, unlike
a lot of other people who continue to change their message with the going trend, that my message really hasn’t changed fundamentally from the start, but it has evolved over time. What I’ve done is now
I’ve created a program. I’m calling it Three Week Meal-by-Meal Total Health Transformation
Program: The Primalgenic Plan. It is, you know, I just sort of had this. – [Asprey] You sound
like a marketing person there for a minute. – [Gedgaudas] Do I sound like that? Well, you know, okay.
– [Asprey] There’s nothing wrong with that.
– [Gedgaudas] You think better language, it’s
about communicating, right? It’s about effective communication and reaching people in ways
they want to be reached, but the quality of what I’ve created and what I’ve done, I’m
telling you, there’s no fluff. A lot of marketing, there’s fluff. There’s no fluff here. This is intense information, lots of really high quality information so that people not only have a little bit of hand-holding going through the process of adopting a health optimizing diet that I believe is fundamentally
foundational for everybody, but also that they’re going to get a lot of why and where. They’re going to understand why they’re doing what they’re doing. – [Asprey] The good news
is that if you created all of this knowledge
and you didn’t put it in a such a format that
people would consume it, it doesn’t matter, because knowledge that no one ever receives
is useless knowledge. The second thing, just
because of the success and the visibility of Bullet Proof Radio, my company Bullet Proof,
not a lot of food companies have raised 16 million in venture funding and things like that.
– [Gedgaudas] Yeah, show off. – [Asprey] Well, it’s not about showing off.
– [Gedgaudas] I’m kidding. I’m kidding.
– [Asprey] It’s just, it provides access to things. I had a chance to sit down with CEOS of some of the largest food
companies in the world, and you walk into those meetings like, these people are destroying
the human whatever. You sit down and you talk to them, and actually, they are, they have kids. they have their own autoimmune issues, and they are keenly interested in, oh, what can I do for myself? What can I do for my employees? What can I do for my customers? – [Gedgaudas] They’re human beings. – [Asprey] They’re human, and they actually want to help, and to a T, they all
feel a moral obligation to create the best stuff
that people will buy. The flip side to that,
– [Gedgaudas] To the degree to which they understand. I’m actually very good friends with somebody who was
CEO of three different major, major, major companies, and they said to me,
“Nora, I swear to you, I did not know how bad trans fats were.” But he says, “I promise
you, there were people around me who knew and said nothing.” – [Asprey] There’s group think, and what my experience has
been is CEOs are curious. They’re interested, but in
one of the big companies, there was something, look
saturated fats are just bad, and they were not going to change that. I’m like great, this is
on the list of companies that will be disrupted. It is going to happen, because saturated fats
make people feel good, and they are not bad for you. If they’re trans fats that are saturated, it’s a different end. – [Gedgaudas] Or interesterified fats, which are now replacing the trans fats. – [Asprey] All the bad things you can do, but the thing is, they want to do it. They also say look, if I do things that make the food cost twice as much, no one will buy it and someone else will make junk foods, so.
– [Gedgaudas] I would. – [Asprey] Well, they say that, but to them, no one. I want something 99% of people will buy, and it’s got to be the
lowest possible cost. The bottom line is: there’s a certain point
you go below this cost, it’s not okay to sell that, and I really do think these companies are waking up to that, because they see, like, Campbell’s soup just dropped 20% in sales, and people are saying I
just don’t want it anymore. It’s not food. I think your message, our message, the message that our listeners share, they’re going to let you
know what’s going on. Evolution is happening. It’s just slow. – [Gedgaudas] Well, the
thing about corporations is that they really have one obligation, one obligation only, and that’s to profit
for their shareholders. It’s not to create the
best quality whatever just because people are asking for it. I don’t trust them to
give me what I ask for, even if I demand it or even
if lots of us demand it. What they’re likeliest to do is to give us what they think we want to hear. They’ll use the language that they think will most effectively reach, but in the way that it maximizes the profit for their shareholders. I don’t know that I ever trust
the major food manufacturers to do the right thing, you know? I just don’t necessarily. – [Asprey] I don’t trust
them to do the right thing, but I know they want
to do the right thing. I know that they’ll
respond to market forces. What that means is that
if you do the right thing, and I do the right thing,
and our people listening today and people read your books, they go out and say, you know what, I’m not buying that. The food supply will shift, and that is the only
way that it will shift. – [Gedgaudas] I guess we may
have to agree to disagree. I don’t think that the market forces are going to give us what
we’re actually asking for. I think that they are learning more about how to tell us what we want to hear. – [Asprey] Paleo brownie mix story? – [Gedgaudas] Exactly, you know, that would be one among many. For instance, the whole trans fat thing. Now everything is zero trans
fat, whatever, on the label, and then you look, and this was before the law changed last year, and you look at the label of
the microwave popping corn, and 0% trans fat on the label. You turn it over, and partially
hydrogenated soybean oil is the first ingredient on the list because the labeling laws
are basically written for them, not for us. The labeling laws are
written in such a way as to allow them loopholes
big enough to drive an air craft carrier through, and they can state thing sin a certain way to mislead us into thinking that something’s not there when it is. Okay, now zero trans fat,
because the laws are saying no trans fat in the food. Hopefully they’re following suit, but they switched over
interesterified fat, which is every bit as bad, if not worse than the trans fat was, and so again, I think that if
they can twist things around in a way that convince us to buy whatever without actually having to, you know, spend more money and change
practices to truly sustainable and health-generating methods, you know, they’ll do it. They’ll do whatever
they can get away with. I don’t mean to sound so
cynical and dark about it, but I really think that’s
the way the system works. So for us, you know, it’s
important to understand that nobody’s coming to save us, that we can’t ever
expect, in my humble view, anything to change from
the top down, ever, because there’s very
little motivation for that. I think what’s incumbent
upon us in the face of so many things we feel
like we can’t control is to take control of
what we can, be aware, understand as much of this as we can, and find ways of strategizing
our way around the system, and develop that first hand knowing of where your food comes from as much as humanly possible, you know, and educate yourself. Take responsibility for as
much as you possibly can. – [Asprey] When you get
back to primalgenics and talk about these 12 pillars, what’s the first one about
uncompromised dietary quality? What does that mean? – [Gedgaudas] So, uncompromised
dietary quality means you’re consuming, for instance,
the animal source foods you’re consuming are coming from animals that have been themselves, fed a diet that is optimal for them, right? Natural forage, grass fed, and finished, naturally, or wild caught,
or hunted, or whatever, and also when it comes to
your plant based foods, organic, biodynamic, and the
more you have a firsthand knowing of where that plant
food came from, the better. – [Asprey] I think I’m doing that right. If people go to my Instagram
page, Dave dot Asprey, there’s a picture of a pig’s head. I raise the pig on my small, family farm, and fed it, actually, brain octane oil and activated charcoal every day and practiced intermittent
fasting on occasion, had twice the
– [Gedgaudas] Pork must be fully natural for a pig. – [Asprey] It would be, right? It had twice the meat
that the butcher expected. He’s like, “How did you
do this with this pig? This is the most beautiful
thing I’ve ever seen.” I cooked his face and ate
it, and it was delicious. – [Gedgaudas] I’ll bet. I’ll bet. Excellent. – [Asprey] You say nose
to tail in your books. – [Gedgaudas] Nose to tail!
– [Asprey] And I did it. – [Gedgaudas] Yeah, yeah, and that’s part of the equation, too, understanding that part of what it means to eat an ancestrally based diet is to understand that it’s not just about
steak and chicken, right? That there, our ancestors
ate a lot of organ meats, and they did bone broths and ate bone marrow and all of that. In fact, we have big brains in, well, many of us, do, anyway. I won’t name names to the exceptions, but politicians and whatever, but it’s so important for us to get these foods from the
highest quality sources and then understand we
need to develop a taste for things that we’ve consumed over the last two point six million years that now are not so much commonly consumed in the food supply, but we have to go a little bit out of our way to find
really high quality, you know, organ meats, and make
our own bone broths at home, all that stuff in order to get all of the nutrients that we’re
supposed to be getting. There’s ways of doing it. There’s a great company. I don’t have any financial
stake in them at all, but Ancestral Supplements, I’m sure you’re familiar with them, where they take freeze dried
– [Asprey] Chopped liver? – [Gedgaudas] Really high quality organs and tissues, whatever, from things that are pristinely fed in New Zealand. They’ve encapsulated all that so that you can get it in a way if you are just too squeamish about eating organs, there’s
other ways of getting it. – [Asprey] There’s a company
that makes those liver gummies. What do you think about that? (laughs) Sorry.
– [Gedgaudas] Mm, yum. Yeah, okay, got my mouth watering now. So anyway, I’m very much about making it a diet based on foods
of uncompromising quality. In other words, 100% organic, grass fed, fed and finished, by the way, grass fed, free of GMOs, pesticides, herbicides, all that stuff. And also, the number two pillar is minimizing all the foods containing significant sugar and starch content, including the fruit juices and
the so called natural sugars such as honey, coconut sugar, maple syrup, agave, God forbid, and even
starchy vegetables and stuff as well as the refined
garbage or carb-age, as I sometimes call it. – [Asprey] What do you
say to the people saying, you know, we looked at
all sorts of records, and our ancestors ate
meaningful amounts of honey? – [Gedgaudas] Right, well it depends on the ancestry you’re talking about, and the season, whatever, but just because, again,
our ancestors did something is not a good enough reason for me to want to do the exact same thing. Right? – [Asprey] You don’t have a
Stonehenge in your backyard? – [Gedgaudas] That would
be so cool, wouldn’t it? – [Asprey] It would be.
– [Gedgaudas] I was just there actually, it was a really neat thing. I will say, I’m friends with Jeff Leach. You know who he is. He’s said that, actually, that friends since thought the Hadza, of course, the diet that the Hadza are eating now is not the diet that they always used to eat. They’re not able to hunt large animals anymore because the government won’t let them anymore, right? It’s small game, whatever,
and they eat a lot of honey, but they’ve also developed
a genetic polymorphism that allows the bacteria in their gut to metabolize that honey so that it doesn’t affect their insulin. It’s like crazy adaptation, but they’ve developed a
specific adaption to it. I would not expect the
average person in our culture to have that same adaptation. Speaking of honey, I mean, I have a close friend, and they literally, the only thing they did wrong, this was someone who never overate, who only ate organic, who
moderated their protein intake, they grew all their organic
food in their own garden, they played tennis, did yoga every week, and had a great attitude
and everything else. They literally destroyed their heart, and they’re dead now, and became diabetic. The only carb in their life was honey, and they believed honey was a super food, so they were doing a few
tablespoons of honey a day and made themselves diabetic, and ended up losing a couple of toes and whatever else, and everything else,
anybody would have looked at anything else they were doing with their diet and their exercise, and their attitude toward life, and everything else and say, you know, nothing wrong with
this person’s lifestyle at all. – [Asprey] Some of the
research that I put together for my new book on
anti-aging, it’s not out yet, comes out later this
year, touched on research that when people eat a
diet that’s more than 20% from animal protein, usually
that means meat protein, not necessarily collagen and whatnot, and probably I would
guess including casein, I’d have to look back at the study, they’re finding that
when they eat that much, there’s about a 500%
increase in risk of diabetes whether or not the rest
of it’s with sugar, but the risk changes after a certain age, like after 65, you need a little bit more. The argument there is less protein, and you and I would agree
on eating less protein. – [Gedgaudas] We do. – [Asprey] Is it possible
your friend was eating way too much protein? – [Gedgaudas] They were
actually, if anything, under consuming. – [Asprey] So they were risk
on a honey and fat diet. – [Gedgaudas] Well, they weren’t actually, you know, actually the only
thing I would’ve complained about with her diet was that she wasn’t, this was somebody that
was really kind of into a lot of the early Bernard
Jensen stuff and whatever else, so they actually had bought
into the lower fat thing. I don’t know if they
were totally fat-phobic, but they didn’t, it was not
a high percentage fat diet, which in their case
might have been helpful. Doing high fat and high sugar together, it’s like throwing a fuse
on top of a powder keg. It’s not a good combo, you know? Fat on its own, fabulous. Sugar on its own? Mm, you know. None of us are really designed to handle high amounts of carbohydrates. We’re just not. And by the way, there’s no established, scientifically established dietary requirement for carbohydrate. Not in any medical textbook or
textbook of human physiology. We don’t require them dietarily at all. – [Asprey] Now, I went on an extreme zero carb thing.
– [Gedgaudas] There is no, there is no kind of such thing. You could just eat straight meat. – [Asprey] I pretty much ate meat and fat, one serving of broccoli a day, and that was it for three months. My sleep quality dropped through the floor after about six or eight weeks on that. I was waking up 12 times a night without knowing I was waking up. I felt super hungover,
and I developed allergies to eggs, actually, after I did that. – [Gedgaudas] Have you
ever done a full battery of Cyrex testing? – [Asprey] I have, yeah. – [Gedgaudas] Have you done
some of the newer testing like the array 12 that’s
looked at whether or not you have microbial, you know, reacting to microbial antigens at all? – [Asprey] I don’t know if
I’ve run that panel lately. – [Gedgaudas] Could be super interesting, because a lot of people
that have a history of chronic viral infections, for instance FCr, megalovite, whatever, end up reacting to stuff
you would never expect anyone to react to. – [Asprey] And eggs are
known to trigger if there’s, eggs and chicken both, right? – [Gedgaudas] Well, in certain individuals who may be sensitive, who
may be vulnerable to that. That would be a place I’d want to look if I were working with you as a client. It’s like, oh yeah, I
really want to look at this because people who start reacting to meat like chicken, whatever, I really want, because those are the
things that are least likely to be antigenic, right? I really want to start looking
at those microbial antigens. The history of FCr is a
biggie, biggie, biggie. – [Asprey] I do have a history of taking an insane amount of antibiotics for many years.
– [Gedgaudas] Oh, shit. – [Asprey] From living in
a toxic mold environment, to chronic sinus infections
and all that kind of stuff, so I’m a high risk person
for all types of things. I used to weigh 300 pounds, et cetera. I also only had 48 species
of bacteria in my gut according to a biome test. I added some low utilizable carb, essentially the prebiotic stuff that Bullet Proof is launching now, and I got my species
count up to about 196, which is somewhere around
the 80th percentile. I think that also could’ve been an issue that I just didn’t have anything
to feed my gut bacteria. They may have been going
after my gut lining. I kind of feel like
I’ve seen so many people go on a no carb diet, and
then after a couple of months they really don’t like their life. – [Gedgaudas] And you know, it depends on what they’re doing with that. I don’t, you know, it’s a trite phrase, but it’s really true. I do tend to eat more vegetables and fibrous vegetables and greens than most vegetarians and vegans do. – [Asprey] Yeah, same here. – [Gedgaudas] Right, so
I’m an advocate for that, but it’s, it’s, I see it as supplemental,
not foundational, not necessarily fundamental, but I do think those
things are more important to us today than they ever used to be during our long evolutionary history, just simply because of how
embattled our gut biome is in today’s world with everything. I mean, chlorinated water, glyphosate. We’re surrounded by antibiotics, and so our gut biome is
constantly under attack. Anything we can do to
prebiotically feed that is great. I will say, there are fermentable, you know, animal fibers, too. – [Asprey] Collagen being the number one. – [Gedgaudas] Collagen being
very, very high on the list. Yes, all kinds of connective
tissue and things like that. Even more effective is a prebiotic than, like, fructooligosaccharides
might be, and this comes from microbiologists.
– [Asprey] Do you think collagen is more effective
as a prebiotic than FOS? – [Gedgaudas] Specifically collagen? Possibly. – [Asprey] It’s the most fermentable meat.
– [Gedgaudas] Do you know who Braun Krishnan is? – [Asprey] I don’t believe so. – [Gedgaudas] He’s a
scientist, a microbiologist, and he’s all about gut
bacteria and all that, and he said yeah, absolutely, it’s even more effective as a prebiotic in some cases than plant fiber, in terms of facilitating
healthy gut flora. – [Asprey] I’ll look up his research. In the 2014 Bullet Proof Diet, I talked about two studies that showed bacteria can turn collagen into butyric acid in the gut of leopards. – [Gedgaudas] Yes, yes,
but our digestive system is far more similar to carnivores, and I’ve seen that same research, than it is herbivores. We don’t have a fermentative
based digestive system. Only 20% of our digestive system
is devoted to fermentation. We have a hydrochloric acid
based digestive system. We are designed to derive nutrients from animals that have synthesized
these nutrients for us. We don’t have any possible means of optimizing the extraction
of nutrients from plants. We don’t have that type
of digestive system, so we can’t do what a cow does, or you know, a rabbit, whatever.
– [Asprey] Even if we wanted to do what one of them does, we probably don’t know very well. I know if I take raw kale, and I try to give it to my sheep, they’ll spit it out.
– [Gedgaudas] I would do that. – [Asprey] If I give it
to some of my friends, they make a salad out of it. – [Gedgaudas] Kale chips, love them. – [Asprey] They’re cooked! – [Gedgaudas] Kale, I
just, bad mouth feel. I don’t know, I don’t care for it, but I love kale chips. I could eat a whole, you know, whole huge bucket of kale chips. – [Asprey] You don’t worry
about oxalic acid in kale? – [Gedgaudas] I don’t
have problems with that. I guess if somebody was
prone to certain types of kidney stone, perhaps, you know, oxalates, but once you’ve, and I know there’s only a certain degree to which you can neutralize
some of these things by cooking, but anyway.
– [Asprey] Yeah, you can cook and wash the water, and throw baking soda or something in to basically precipitate out the crystals before you eat it, but, like, uh, vulvodynia is associated with high intake of kale and oxalic acid, which is a really painful
condition for women where your organs are so inflamed that you can’t even wear underwear. The women I know who’ve had it are just, I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. – [Gedgaudas] Whether I
have underwear on or not, not really the issue, but
I don’t have that problem. – [Asprey] Thank goodness. – [Gedgaudas] Yes, thank goodness. But, you know.
– [Asprey] I don’t have underwear on right now.
– [Gedgaudas] But you know, it’s like kale chips are kind
of an occasional indulgence. I don’t do this every day, so, but anyway. It’s one of my weaknesses. – [Asprey] I hear you, but
also if they work for you, they don’t, and I think a third of people, according to Viome,
don’t have gut bacteria that handles oxalates, and
two thirds of people do! So, which one are you, and can you grow those gut bacteria? I haven’t been able to. I still, I get sore
joints when I eat kale. I just don’t eat it. It’s not worth it. Or I might just have a few bites, because it’s delicious. Well, you have 12 rules. – [Gedgaudas] And we’ve
actually gone through three. You inadvertently got to number three, which was the protein moderation thing. Really, this is not a carnivore diet. This is not a high protein diet. This is a very moderate protein diet. Again, when you consume protein in excess of what you need for your
maintenance and repair, a certain percentage of that,
anywhere from 36 to 58%, depending on whose research you look at, can get converted to sugar
and used the same way. Maybe there’s a diabetes thing there. I don’t know. Then you’re also activating mTOR, which is also part of the equation when it comes to diabetic,
you know, involvement. If you’re activating mTOR, this mammalian target of
rapamycin, this metabolic pathway, you’re basically shortening your lifespan is what it boils down to. And I know that people are
liking the carnivore diet thing. It’s another fad, and I understand, for long stretches of
our evolutionary history, we were high level carnivores. We were higher level
carnivores than bears, wolves, foxes, you know,
all kinds of things because we hunted megafauna. – [Asprey] I support that for, you know, do it for six weeks to
reset your gut bacteria. See how you do, cool. You want to do that for several years? You’re not going to like what happens. – [Asprey] Although,
– [Gedgaudas] I’m not a fan. [Asprey] a few people do it.
– [Gedgaudas] I’m not a fan. I’m not a fan of that. – [Asprey] We’re not gonna
get through all 12 of these, but I think, there isn’t time in the show. I do think, though, that
that’s a really good example. All the principles are
very much in alignment with what I’ve learned,
and they all make sense, and they’re all in your
primalgenic program. You say it’s a program. Is this an online thing?
– [Gedgaudas] Yeah, it’s an online thing. There are a number of videos, quite a number of them, actually. Right now, at least 16. There are gonna be additional, all kinds of additional bonuses and handouts and things
that you’ll be getting, and recordings. There’ll also be an exclusive forum where people can come on, and they’ll feel a sense of community. They’ll be able to ask questions and all that kind of a thing, so there’ll be a lot of
support around this as well. This is really, you know,
a kind of very, very passionate thing that I have
created rather painstakingly, and there’s nothing
superficial or fluff about it. – [Asprey] It’s real education. – [Gedgaudas] It is. And real help for people who
are suffering that need it. – [Asprey] You’re a pioneer in the field, so making your teachings, just boiling them down to 12 things is exceptionally difficult to do. And then make to make it shareable, so I appreciate that you did that, and I’m hoping people got a taste of the kind of knowledge
you have on the show today. I’ve got a question for you. I’m really keen, this is the final
question in the interview, really keen to get your take on this. I’m planning to live an
exceptionally long time, or at least die trying. – [Gedgaudas] Hopefully you don’t get hit by a bus later today, but yeah. – [Asprey] You know,
driving heavy vehicles is part of my anti-aging plan.
– [Gedgaudas] Or get hit by a stray vegan bullet or something. – [Asprey] Vegan bullets, they just splat, I tell ya. – [Gedgaudas] Yeah,
okay, like a marshmallow. – [Asprey] Exactly. So, assuming that no trauma takes me out, the diseases of aging
and things like that, I think I can hit 180 at least. – [Gedgaudas] Theoretically
possible, right? – [Asprey] Now, and you studied a lot of things I haven’t studied, and we’ve looked at a
lot of similar things, but how long do you think you can live? – [Gedgaudas] Oh man. You know, I don’t know. And actually, it doesn’t
matter to me that much. What matters is not so much the length of time that any of us live. What’s the point of living to 120 if you’re on an oxygen tank and limping around, and you know, your mental faculties are gone, and your joints are
aching, and whatever else. It’s about the quality of life, not the quantity of life in my mind. So even though part of what I do is I cross-pollinate my ancestral research with human longevity research, which again, just because
our ancestors did something is not necessarily good enough reason for me to want to do the same thing. Just because something
grew out of the ground and seemed natural, and they
could shove it in their faces, eat it, and not drop dead,
doesn’t necessarily mean that was health optimizing for them. I want to know what’s optimizing. So, that’s my approach, and it seems very puritanical, but I’ve got to tell you that
we got no wiggle room today. We do not have the wiggle room
of our prehistoric ancestors. We don’t even have the wiggle room of our great grandparents,
our grandparents, or even our parents, that we are living in a modern world that is more hostile to our being as a human species than
any hostile environment we’ve ever lived through during our long evolutionary history, only what we’re wired for as a species are tangible threats, right? If a saber tooth tiger jumps out from behind a bush, chase
you around, that’s tangible. A cantankerous wooly
mammoth, a poisonous snake, a warring tribe, a major storm, you know, seismic event, or even
famine, that’s tangible. Today, we’re all living
in these lovely 72 degree climate controlled environments. We have plenty. We don’t have to take
even more than a couple of steps in any direction
to grab a handful of something we might
want to call as food, and, you know, we’re
sitting on our comfy couches watching Dancing with the Stars
and eating cheesy doodles, and thinking we’ve got it pretty good. We feel like we’re sitting
in a hot tub in Vegas when we’re really boiling frogs, and so most of what threatens our survival today as a species are those things that are fundamentally invisible to us. Contaminants in our air,
water, and food supply. You know, mycotoxins, certainly, EMF, and God help us, five G,
radiation contamination, and the sociopathic imaginings of multinational corporate interests, and you know, all kinds of things are threatening us in ways that are invisible, and
therefore we’re not wired to know to pay attention to those things and to take action in
order to protect ourselves. So, again, we have to take
control of what we can, because we’re being impinged
on from every which direction. Taking control of our health
and learning to pay attention, and we have to condition
ourselves to look for this stuff and to pay attention to it. You were talking about BPA earlier. You know, people see BPA free. It’s a ruse, folks, because
everything that’s BPA free, they’re replacing it with BPS, which is just as bad or worse. It’s just like the trans fat thing. It’s being replaced with
interesterified fat, and the industry is just buying itself another decade or two, leading us to believe oh,
this is good for me now. It’s BPA free. We have to be alert to
some of these issues. Anyway, I’m committed to
providing as much information as I possibly can that is
going to be of practical value to people that need it. I’ve worked with suffering people for over two decades now, and I’ve had it up to my eyeballs. I’ve really had it up to
my gills with suffering. So much of it is unnecessary, and I think people are being victimized by misinformation and disinformation, and predatory advertising,
and all kinds of crap, and I’m really, really
committed to making sure that people get good information that can make a measurable difference in the way they feel and
function in this world. – [Asprey] Nora, thanks for
being on Bullet Proof Radio. Your website, Primal Body, Primal Mind? – [Gedgaudas] Primalbody-primalmind.com, I also have a certification course, 52 weeks worth of in depth material. Yeah, if you go to primalcourses.com, you can learn more about
my different programs and learn more about my new
primalgenic plan program, which I think is going to be an easy way for people to incorporate
these changes into their lives in a way that will make a real difference. – [Asprey] Well, your 12
principles are all correct, as far as my understanding
of the world is, and it is not easy to do that. Well executed. Thanks for being a pioneer, game changer, disrupter in the field. (laughs) – [Gedgaudas] Yeah, I’m a
rabble rouser, that’s for sure. Total troublemaker, but you
know, I’m in good company, so there you go.
– [Asprey] Fit right in. Thank you.
– [Gedgaudas] Totally. Thanks, Dave, appreciate it. – [Asprey] If you liked today’s episode, you know what to do. Head on over to Nora’s
website, and check it out. Pick up one of Nora’s books, or pick up one of my books
if you haven’t already, and whatever you do, when
you buy a book from someone who’s been on the show, go to Amazon and leave a review, because it tell other people that, you know, as an author, we like to know what we
did made a difference, so do that. It takes maybe 10 seconds to do it, but more importantly, it
lets you express gratitude, which makes you live longer. So, live longer, review books. (laughs) Have a great day. (techno music) – [Gedgaudas] It also helps offset all the predatory vegan reviews, right? Right? Right? Right?